Details about the G2a3 (U8*) clade (DYS388=13)
....most of Group 2

    link here to many of the persons here  listed here in Y-Search        link here to the lab results in Haplo G Project
                       link here to the Sorenson Y-DNA database                           link here to YHRD database
                       [search for surname using FTDNA values]

Explanation of this clade
Please note that all references to the old terminology for this group have been changed here to
say G2a. Some other locations on the Internet may still use the old term, G2.

This page and the diagram above contain most of the men in Group 2 of this clade.  Several subgroups
which are intergral parts of this group 2 are omitted and have separate pages. The significance of the subgroups
is that the members of each subgroup are very closely related. With additional samples other subgroups may
emerge.

The persons in Group 2 were arbitrarily chosen based on their genetic distance from the subgroups in
Group 1. Some members are much closer in genetic distance to members of Group 1 than others and
might logically overlap into Group 1. It should be emphasized that the members of both groups share a
common male ancestor, but segregating those who are the most distantly related from the others is useful
in showing some differences in origins.

Note that this Group 2 has almost none of the Swiss and Welsh members seen in Group 1. And so far there are
no members from southern Europe, as seen in Group 1. This Group 2 also includes those within the clade
who are most distant genetically from most clade members. These stick out on longer branches from the
center group.  Many of the members of Group 2 are part of what is termed the clade's star cluster.  Visually this
is a messy cluster of persons. Star clusters on diagrams indicate that persons within this cluster have multiple
connections to other persons who are relatively closely related, as shown by the multiple lines branching
to these other persons. In contrast, those lacking these interconnections would be along a single branch
on the diagram.

In the description for Group 1 are listed samples from the YHRD database from eastern Europe,
the Caucasus and Iran that exactly match about 10 of the 37 markers for both group 1 and group 2.
These will not be repeated on this page, and one should visit that page for further information.
While this is suggestive evidence that these eastern men belong to this clade, additional markers are
needed to verify this.  Having such detailed eastern samples would allow an estimate of when the western and
eastern (if any) components of the clade separated.

A subgroup candidate for Group 2 consists of three men who have a value of 12 for DYS537.
This is a slow marker, with mutations occurring about 1 in 1000 generations. Tatum,
Key and Mikalson share this value. This value of 12 is not unique for this clade among G
persons which makes it difficult to confirm the uniqueness of the subgroup.

At least one of the men here was found to be G2a, but negative for G2a1 and G2a2. Although none of
the men in this group seems to have participated in the Garvey & associates project to find new
subcategories of G, it is likely all these men have the newly discovered U8 mutation, but lack
U1, U13 and U16.   When these new mutations are categorized, this combination of findings may
be given the catgeory of G2a3*.

There are partial samples from Ossetia Russia, Georgia, and Iran that exactly match
the typical values seen in this clade. The ones in Ossetia and Georgia are a recognizable G
minority. Time calculations suggest the most recent common ancestor of both the
Georgian/Ossetian group and this DYS388=13 clade lived sometime between 2000 and
3000 yrs ago. This fact also suggests that the European clade had its origins somewhere in
that region. The available Georgian/Ossetian sample contains the ancestral DYS388=12.
If this DYS388=13 clade had its origins among the Sarmatian peoples of the Caucasus
region, they would likely have been a minority within the migrating group because the
DYS388 marker changed from 12 to 13 likely within a 500-year period. This would made
it difficult for the man who mutated to 13 to produce as descendants the hundreds of thousands
of Sarmatian peoples who entered Europe about 2000 yrs. ago.

Persons probably belonging to this clade    June 2007 update
............confirmed members with 37 markers listed on the graph above are in bold
.....................those with fewer than 37 markers who only seem to belong to the clade are in plain type

who list origins in England
Hildreth This is a group of closely related men. They will not be listed individually. Link here
              to see those in Y-Search. Three are in G Project. Two of these are confirmed by the
              lab as G2a, and one of these found not to be G2a2.
Gilbert # 2 M5VTK in Y-Search.   Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
               confirmed as G.
Stirling SJTZM in Y-Search. 23206 in G Project. Only predicted as G. He is nearest to
               Adkins in Group 1. Stirling's results received too late to include on diagram above.
               More markers available in G Project where is classified as Scottish.
Timbs GJHU4 in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Lists English origins, but suggests
              there may have been an adoption in paternal line. Matches Knowles # 2 (Bahamian) for 24 of 25
              markers and Johnson for 12 of 12 markers, but more markers needed to determine any
              potential relationship. Unclear whether predicted or confirmed as G. He also matches
              two Americans in Sorenson database, George and Skipper, as closely as he does Knowles.
Key/Kaye This is a group of men all closely related. They will not be listed individually here
               Link here to see the English subgroup in Y-Search. There are multiple Americans of
               similar names who are genetically more distant to the Englishmen and are listed below.
               Many of the men in this Key group are in the G Project with at least one confirmed
               by the lab as G2a but unclear if tested further. The Key group shares a common ancestor
               within 1000 yrs. with Rufener (Swiss), as well as 3 Americans, Case, Mikalson and
               Tatum.
Tatum # 1 EFS8C in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
               confirmed as G.
Tatum # 2 V2F37 in Y-Search.   Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
               confirmed as G.  Unlike # 1, he lists only American origins.
              The Tatums are closely related. They share a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with
               the Key/Kaye/Kays/Case group, some of whom have English origins and also
               Mikalson, an American.

who list origins in Ireland
Stacy # 1 DNXMP in Y-Search.  68725 in G Project.  He is apparently closely related to a group
            of Stacy/Stacey men with only 12 or 25 markers. Link here to see all the G Stacys in Y-Search.
            About half are confirmed as G (M201+) confirmed as G, but unclear if tested further.
            They share a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with an American, Sparkman.
Lannin # 1 W5KD6 in Y-Search. 46200 in G Project.  Lab makes no prediction as to G status.
Lannin # 2 HPRDK in Y-Search. 21241 in G Project. Lab markes no prediction as to G status.
Lanning 3YSF4 in Y-Search. 39480 in G Project. Lab markes no prediction as to G status.
        The Lannins/Lannings are all closely related.
Hughes 2C7SE in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
              confirmed as G.   He shares a common ancestor within 1000 yrs. with the Stewarts (one
              Scottish, and a Scottish surname) and with Griggs (English or Scottish). Likewise he probably
              has a close relationship with the Hamiltons (American) who have only 32 markers.
Quinn V6UED in Y-Search.   38675 in G Project. Confirmed by lab as G2a but unclear if tested
              further. Lists origins in northern Ireland.

who list origins in Scotland
Gray # 2  HHDTJ in Y-Search. N32000 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G (M201+) but
            unclear if tested further. Shares a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with Moore # 2.
Stewart # 1 FAJ59 in Y-Search.  44024 in G Project. Only predicted as G.
Stewart # 3 VHENW in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
            predicted as G.
      These Stewarts are closely related. They share a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with Hughes
      (Irish), Griggs (English or Scottish) and probably with two Hamiltons, Americans with 32 markers.

who list origins in Germany
Merck MDSQC in Y-Search. N25140 in G Project. Only predicted as G. Family moved
           from Germany to Russia.
Schiefelin Apparently not in Y-Search. 66305 in G Project. Lab makes no prediction as to
           G status.
Guenther 7WHRF in Y-Search. 61221 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a but unclear
           whether tested further.

who list origins in Switzerland and Austria
Ladnier   NC3HR in Y-Search. N35359 in G Project. Only predicted as G. His results were available
            too late to include on the diagram above.
Hibl/Huebel/Hebel W7EVP in Y-Search.  240 in G project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a
              But unclear if tested further.  Classified here too late to include on diagram above.

who list origins in Sweden
Erlandson RDKYJ in Y-Search. 71641 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a but unclear if
tested further.

who list origins in Belgium and Holland
Roeloffzen # 1 CH5NQ in Y-Search. 59391 in G Project. Confirmed by lab as G2a but
            unclear if tested further. There are two fragmentary Roeloffzen results in Y-Search
            that seem related to him. Link here to see all three results. They list origins in Holland.
Van Raepenbusch DWM3P in Y-Search. N14193 in G Project. Confirmed by lab as G2a, and
            negative for G2a1 and G2a2.   Information that he now has 37 Family Tree DNA markers came too late to
            include on the diagram above.

who list origins in France
Poetgens YAYJJ in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
predicted as G. Lists origins in a German area of northeastern France. His first 12 markers exactly
match Miller # 1 and Seabaugh, but more markers needed to determine a relationship.

who list origins in Italy
Gaz A sample in the Sorenson DNA database. Not tested for G status.
             He shares many similarities with the Copes, but not enough markers are available to determine
             how closely related he may be. He has an unusual 9 value for marker DYS391.

who list no origins or origins outside the Old World
Armijo JST27 in Y-Search. 81190 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a but unclear whether
              tested further. Listed as Spanish in G Project but only lists American ancestors at Y-Search.
              Not all markers shown in Y-Search.
Canter/Cantor This is a group of closely related men. They will not be listed individually. Link here
              to see those in Y-Search. One of the men confirmed by lab as G2a, but not tested
              further. The Canters share a common ancestor within 2000 yrs with the larger DYS388=13
              clade. Many of these men are also in G Project. In the G Project one of these men listed
              as Swiss, but this is not confirmed in the corresponding Y-Search entry.
Coleman # 1 F59G8 in Y-Search. 62192 & 48738 & 47016 in G Project [both samples almost identical]
               One of the G Project members lists Welsh origins.
Coleman # 2  5U853 in Y-Search. 64347 in G Project.
Coleman # 3 XDUJT in Y-Search. N36384 in G Project. Lists UK origins, but mentions only
               American ancestors
        The Colemans are apparenly all closely related. At least one is confirmed by lab as G2a
               but unclear if tested further.
Cope # 1  XZ55N in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
               confirmed as G.
Cope # 2 SYVYT in Y-Search. He or # 3 is 35877 in G Project. 35877 confirmed by lab
               as G (M201+) but unclear if tested further.
Cope # 3 9KGRY in Y-Search. [He lists German origins but lists only Americans]
           The Copes are likely all closely related. Possibly Gaz (Italian) may also have some distinctive
            relationship to them, but not enough markers are available. They have an unusual 9 value
            for markers DYS391.
Frantz RFS46 in Y-Search. 46677 in G Project. Predicted by lab as G2a.   Lists only American
              origins in Y-Search, but as German in G Project. He does have a Germanic surname.
George A sample in the Sorenson database. Not tested for G status. He is a very close match
              with available markers to Skipper, another American in Sorenson database. And he is
              one additional value away from Timbs (English).
Green # 2 BE77T in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
               predicted as G.
Green # 3 DMCBF in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
               predicted as G.
       The Greens are very close genetically.
Hamilton # 1 2P52C in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
                predicted as G.
Hamilton # 3 CPZVN in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether confirmed or
                predicted as G.
      The Hamiltons probably share a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with Griggs (English or Scottish),
                Hughes (Irish) and Stewarts # 1 and # 3 (Scottish or Scottish surname), but their 32 markers
                are not sufficient to assure this is so. The Hamiltons perfectly match 25 markers for most of
                these men. The two Hamiltons are very close genetically. Though they are missing a few
                markers, they are included because enough are present to make valid conclusions.
Hicks # 2 ACQGB in Y-Search.   Apparently 48434 in G Project. Lab makes no prediction
              as to G status. The full 37 markers are found only in G Project.
Hicks # 3 BEP3G in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Closely related to Hicks # 2 genetically.
Joslin 9KHG5 in Y-Search. 45315 in G Project. Only predicted as G.  Y-Search only has
               12 markers, and the additional markers shown in G Project received too late to include
               in the diagram above.
Key/Kaye/Kays This is a group of American men all closely related. They will not be listed
               individually here.  Link here to see them in Y-Search. There are several Englishmen of
               similar names who are genetically more distant to the Americans and are listed above.
               Many of the men in this Key group are in the G Project with at least one confirmed
               by the lab as G2a but unclear if tested further. The Key group shares a common ancestor
               within 1000 yrs. with Rufener (Swiss), as well as 3 Americans, Case, Mikalson and
               Tatum # 1. Included in this group also is Case/Kays FP6VZ in Y-Search. 66070 in
               G Project. Only predicted as G by lab.
Mikalson GB63U in Y-Search. 46836 in G Project.   Confirmed by the lab as G2a but negative
               for G2a1 or G2a2. He shares a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with Tatum # 1 (English)
               and a group with Key/Kays/Case surname, some of which are English.
Moore # 2 KP6T9 in Y-Search. Apparently not in G Project. Unclear whether predicted or
              confirmed as G.   He shares a common ancestor within 1000 yrs with Gray # 2 (Scotland).
Morrow/Lawrence   ZFUYB in Y-Search. N3270 in G Project. Only predicted as G2a by lab.
               Mentions English ancestry, but lists only Americans.
Morrow # 2  ZUGH6 in Y-Search. 73698 in G Project. Only predicted as G2a by lab.
Nichols This is a group of men. Nichols # 8 and Nichols # 11 have 37 markers.
              Those in Y-Search will not be listed individually, but link here to see those in that database.
              The first three values in the G project are 13, 21, 15, as there are different Nicholses.
              One sample confirmed as G (M201+) but unclear if tested further. There is also a Nichols
              sample in the Sorenson database that seems related to these Nichols samples in Y-Search.
Plunkett XXK4T in Y-Search. 56473 in G Project. Lab makes no prediction as to G status.
               In G Project listed as Irish, but no mention of this in Y-Search.
Price # 2 2DXUC in Y-Search. N9262 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a but unclear if
               tested further.
Price # 1 M2R6Y in Y-Search 14573 in G Project. Confirmed by the lab as G2a but unclear if
               tested further.
      The Prices match 24 of 25 markers. More markers needed to determine if closely related.
Skipper   A sample in Sorenson DNA database. Not tested for G status. He is very close match
               with available markers to Timbs (English), and one additional value away from George,
               another Sorenson database American.